Gay Saunas in South Korea

Here's the question:

I was told about these saunas that are like bathhouses and apparently they are everywhere in Korea. [I was told] HOT guys shower together, and rub each other in the shower. Is this true? How far EXACTLY do they go?

What's the type of legality on this, and as a foreigner with a large carriage, can I participate?

I remember reading about these places before coming to Korea and in my handbook, it referred to them as "bathhouses". Of course, bathhouses in the West are known for their popularity among gay/bi/curious cruisers, so I was a bit confused. In fact, if you type "bathhouses" into Google, the first result is a Wikipedia article on Gay Bathhouses. For the most part, the bathhouses, saunas or Jjimjilbang in Korea are, for the most part NOT cruising sites and certainly wouldn't be friendly to someone who tried to make them that way. I recommend reading Galbijims write-up on these saunas. It'll help you get a good feel for what's actually going on in these widely popular establishments.

I am not the biggest fan of the saunas in Korea. First of all, I don't like being hot for any period of time and throw that in with the high level of interest that foreign men (I can't speak for women) get when they enter these facilities, it makes for more stress than relief. However, I have a lot of friends who really enjoy it. In my experience, an overwhelming majority of the men in the saunas are older. Maybe it was the location I chose, but I didn't see many "hot guys" in there. Even if there were, it wouldn't make a difference. Cleanliness and relaxation are the goals, not sex or rubbernecking.

In fact, these places are viewed in such a non-sexual light that there was a recent television commercial innocently showing toddlers washing each other in what was supposed to be a public shower. I was shocked when I first saw it, but my Korean wife didn't think there was anything odd about it. She thought it was cute. There's also a popular Korean comedy show which takes place in a sauna. They sing, dance and play games.

There are some things that happen in Korea (just like any country) that simply don't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to Koreans. A couple years ago, a few Korean friends and I were at a park and we saw two teenage boys massaging and rubbing each other. I assumed that they were gay and made a comment about it. My friends rejected my interpretation and claimed that the boys were helping each other relieve stress because high-school life in Korea can be very demanding. It doesn't matter why they were doing it though. The point was that many Koreans, unlike myself -an American, don't automatically assume that something is sexual or related to sexuality.

Take this for instance: I know many Koreans who semi-regularly visit the saunas with their parents and/or children and all of them routinely wash each others backs. When I first heard of people doing this, I was a little grossed out. I mean, imagining myself in such a situation with my father is almost enough to cause nausea, but it is viewed as a perfectly normal and perhaps even a bonding experience among our Korean brethren.

So, by all means go and enjoy the many saunas of the nation, but understand that nearly all of them have zero tolerance for sexual activity. If you start rubbing another man for any reason other than cleaning, I imagine a fist might be coming your way. I do think it would be a funny dare though.

Still, there are some places where you can go if you're looking for a place to cruise or find a little action. The highest concentration of LGBT bars and clubs reside in Jongno, Hongdae and Itaewon, so the gay saunas tend to be in and around those districts. Utopia Asia has a lot of information on gay culture and hotspots in Korea and they have an interesting page on gay saunas as well. Make sure to take a look at what it has to offer, but I want to use a couple comments from the site.

"Went to Mun Hwa last Sat nite around 1:30am...Man, it was full. It's a good place for people who are into older men of 30+...I had a good time. Just lie down and guys will be on you in no time. They don't play safe, so carry lube and condoms...The sauna was filthy and so were the toilets."

...and...

"If you enter Bosuk, you will feel like you are in a regular straight sauna, and it probably is...until you go to the sleeping area. You will get to see some action, although quite discreet. Normally at the 1/F sleeping area or in the hidden corner on 2/F. Just lay down and pretty soon someone will lay next to you, although I don't see how things can go far here as there are many straight people sleeping as well! BTW, no foreigners here, so you can get very spotlighted."

Two totally different takes on the scene. I'm sure after visiting a few places, one would understand the system a little bit more, but what it sounds like is that very few of the places are advertised as "Gay Saunas". As the other posters on that site mentioned, you must be discreet since there is a mix of straight men sleeping and gay/bi men cruising. You might be able to find a place with private rooms, but I think most places are going to offer public sleeping rooms which are frequently checked by staff. Again, South Korea does not have any laws against homosexuality (aside from military service), so the staff is not looking for criminals. They're just trying to keep their sauna from becoming a hotspot for such activity.

I also found it interesting that so many people claimed that Korean men didn't carry or use protection. For a nation that spends a lot of time telling its people that foreigners have AIDS, I would think that having unprotected sex in bathhouses with foreigners would be unheard of. Then again, contraception in Korea is an interesting topic unto itself.

So, ultimately, you are not going to be walking into a shower or sauna full of young, "hot guys". From what most of the comments over at Utopia said, you'll most likely be walking into a dark, quiet sleeping room full of older men that may or may not be willing to give a big foreigner a chance. Now, I'm sure there are some hidden places in Itaewon that will work just fine for you, but I think it's better to paint the sauna scene is Korea as a very non-sexual one that is for cleaning and relaxing, rather than romance and cruising.

Like my last post on gay behavior in Korea, I hope that some readers might be able to add their thoughts. They were quite valuable last time.

Reactions to Big Dogs in South Korea

Here's the paraphrased question:

I would like to move to [Seoul] South Korea in the fall, and I would need to bring my dog with me, as I do not know anyone who can watch her for a year and I am not going to leave her with a stranger. She is a 50 pound mutt (I understand that larger dogs and mutts are not viewed as positively in Korea), though I think she could pass for some sort of imaginary pure breed based on her look. She lives with me in a small apartment now in a city and she is not a barker or high-strung. Is this just a horrible idea (in your opinion)? I have attempted to research this and received mixed feedback from others. Some of the feedback has been quite negative. Would I be setting me and my doggie up for disaster if we moved to Seoul, or are some people just over exaggerating? What could I reasonably expect? Will people be yelling at me multiple times every day when I am out with the dog, or is it not as common an occurrence (a few times a week)?

As you know, the Internet is THE place for people to vent and unleash whatever tirade they choose without having to own up or defend anything. That's why we love it, but you really shouldn't listen to what you read on anonymous forums. Most of the time, they'll be severely biased and, in the case of Korea, they'll almost be exclusively biased. Even in the case of big dogs, you're certain to find a handful of expats using a simple question like "Where can I buy a big dog?" as a chance to rail into Koreans for their preference for toy dogs, dog meat, xenophobia and a laundry list of other typical expat complaints. Rob has a good write-up about why expats in Korea complain so much. Make sure you check that out.

I would never be able to suggest that someone should separate from their dog. No way! That would be a horrible experience with both of you being miserable. Bring your dog. You'll be much happier as both of you would be adjusting together. However, you and your dog must be ready for a few changes.

Korea, and especially Seoul, is a tight, cramped place with high population density and overly crowded streets. If you're in a location with a lot of foot traffic, walking your dog is going to be an interesting experience. To truly understand public perception of dogs, we must first look at what Koreans view as pets. Koreans are not that pet-friendly to start with. Some of them have hamsters, fish or cats, but it is not a majority. Not even close. As for dogs, any non-toy dog is essentially not a pet. Rather, they are animals that live on the farm or in the country side. You will see a few here and there, but the idea is that big dogs are not cute or stuffed animal-like, so why have them? With apartments the size they are and easy access to outdoors areas limited, having a big dog in Seoul is overwhelmingly uncommon. I say that, but it doesn't mean you and your dog will be screamed at or chastised. Let me offer this story.

I have a puppy. He's a brown jindo-lab mutt that looks totally harmless and acts just as any other puppy would. He's curious, chases birds in the park, eats shoes and wants to play with everyone. When I take him out to go to the bathroom and am patiently waiting for him to squeeze out a few drops or drop a nice one, many people walk by -young women, old men, students, you name it and they pass by without so much as a glance. I have even had a few kids at the park run so fast when seeing my PUPPY that you would think a wolf was chasing them. Most of the time, the initial reaction is to fear it. That's right. My little three month old puppy strikes fear in the heart of some Koreans. But why? Well, since Koreans only have toy dogs, they only know how those breeds react to humans. A big dog is viewed just the same as a small unknown breed: with suspicion. Sure, a bigger one might scare them a little more, but it has more to do with unpredictability rather than size. Fear of the unknown, right?

When I walk my dog, most people look at him with interest, but they always keep a safe distance. Rarely will I have people walk up and pet him. This, however, is more of a blessing than you might think. If your dog was being pet by every person, she would start becoming more irritable on the walks, get less exercise and, of course, you would hate walking her because it would take much longer than usual.

I don't think you have decided on where in Seoul to live yet, but staying away from busy areas (Gangnam, Apgujeong, Jungno, Hongdae, Itaewon) might be a wise decision. Furthermore, heading to an area with easy-access to mountains, water or a park would enhance you and your dog's enjoyment while here. I'd be happy to recommend where some good, more natural locations are if you would like. Let me know.

To wrap it up, bring your dog. Both of you would be miserable without the other, so there's no reason to even consider that. Koreans might do a double-take and will even take a few steps out of the way to avoid crossing paths with you two, but there will be no screaming. Keep him on a leash and as long as he's not barking, destroying your apartment or biting the people he does happen to encounter, then you two will have a great time in Korea.

Here's a podcast on the subject.

If anybody has any questions, just send me an email at asktheexpat@yahoo.com or leave a comment.

Gay in South Korea: A Little Assistance

Here's the question:

Im a 23 year old who just finishing up my degree in National American University and will be moving to a place called Mok-Dong in Seoul. Do you know it? I hope its a nice area with plenty to do and kind people here also.Youve helped me so much with other issues such as weight limits for teachers and visa issues with your blog I was wondering if you could help me with one more. Im kind of looking for a little romance in the 1 year that I plan to stay. Ex-pat, I'd really like to ask you about the gay scene there. Tolerance is not an issue for me (growing up in SD- ugh!) but I know its a very conservative country. Do they have like sodomy laws like in China or Japan? And how like, forward, are Korean guys? cos some parties I went to the Asian guys just hung out in the bathroom. So thats it I wanna have a good time, but I wanna be safe. Whattya say, Ex-Pat?

Thanks a bunch

Jim K

I think I'd like to start this one out with a little excerpt from a Michael Breen article on relationships within the expat community.

"One young North American lady once told me that she and her single Western friends in Seoul felt they were ``living in a gay bar." Neither Korean nor non-Korean men, they complained, seemed interested in them."

Of course, Korea is laughably nowhere close to a gay mecca, but I thought I should frame how many relationships go in the expat community. I wouldn't claim that expats only date Koreans (gay or straight) because it's not true, but it seems like a clear majority of the relationships I see involving (male) expats are with Korean women. The gay expat community, however, is much harder to gauge. It is rare to see gay or lesbian expats openly displaying their relationship on the streets and it is even more rare to see such a thing in an interracial relationship or among gay Korean men or women. As a rule, I must refer you to The Korean's post on homosexuality in Korea. It's great. Not only does he cover some serious issues and make excellent points, but the comment board also offers a wealth of information. It's a little lengthy, but definitely worth the read.

I think being from a state like South Dakota gives you a leg-up in terms of accepting or dealing with intolerance. Maybe I'm wrong about SD, but I can only assume that you're used to a little intolerance. (I'm from Tennessee which constantly proves out conservative and intolerant they can be.) If you were from a more gay-friendly city or state, adjusting might be more of an issue, but I think you should be fine. The gay scene, while not necessarily hosting weekly pride parades, does seem to be thriving given the popular mindset that homosexuality doesn't exist in Korea or can be cured by few visits to the doctor. There are a few popular spots in Seoul with gay clubs, bars and saunas. Itaewon, Hongdae and Jungno is where most of those places can be found. On top of that, you'll be living in Mokdong which is relatively close to all three of those places. My wife and I went to a place on Itaewon's famed "Homo Hill" called "Why Not?" a few months ago and had a lot of fun. While I'm not sure how all places are or how gay Asians party, I can tell you that most of the Koreans there were not hiding in the bathroom. The dance floor was very much alive and no one was being shy.

There's an organization for gay men that's based out of Seoul called "Chingusai" or "Among Friends". They have been operating for over a decade and offer a lot of services and assistance to the community. They've got a message board where people are talking about current issues, events and even arranging meetings. This site (and this one) also offer some assistance for newcomers and it wouldn't hurt to check out this facebook group or even Craigslist.

It looks like you're more interested in the legality and safety of potential relationships rather than where to find it, so let me talk about that. In Korea, same-sex sexual activity is totally legal and there is no mention of sodomy laws anywhere that I can find. Even if there were such laws, I would assume they would be nothing more than blue laws and therefore, nothing to worry about. However, the ROK military takes a different stance as they discharge soldiers for being gay and can even charge the men involved with sexual harassment for such an act. You might also find that a few gay-content websites will be censored, blocked or filtered by the government, but those typically tend to be only Korean-run sites rather than gay-content sites in general. Legally speaking, you'll have no problem and as long as you aren't too obvious or risky, you'll have no problems socially either.

In another email, you mentioned the prevelance of Hepatitis and other STDs which is, of course, a concern for anyone. I couldn't find anything about anything about Hep in particular, but I found this study on AIDS and HIV which seems to be the most current and comprehensive of its kind. There's also a thread about STD's at Daves's that, aside from the usual snarky comments, offers a glimpse into the STD world in Korea. If you're looking for a very detailed, academic and historical look at Korea's sexual past and present, then take a look Choi Hyung-Ki's exhaustive research on the topic. It talks about everything from sexual behavior to STD's and abortion.

I think that you'll find that Korea is more accommodating that you would think. As long as you're up for an adventure, then you should find a pretty solid group out there. There are plenty of gay Koreans and expats for you to find a meaningful relationship and have a lot of fun. The bars and clubs seem to be gaining popularity and always seem to be busy. You'll be just fine.

Update October 23rd, 2009: Korea Times has a write-up on how Social Ostracism Stifles Sexual Minorities. It's an alright article.

If anybody has any questions, just send me an email at asktheexpat@yahoo.com or leave a comment